Herizal Hazri to Lead Malaysian Institute of Strategic and International Studies

The new head of the Malaysian Institute of Strategic and International Studies (ISIS) is a long-time Asia Foundation hand in Malaysia. As he prepares for his new post, Country Representative Herizal Hazri shares his thoughts on a decade and a half of development.

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Herizal Hazri (00:00):

Hello, my name is Herizal Hazri. I am currently the country representative of the Asia Foundation in Malaysia.

John Rieger (00:07):

Welcome to InAsia from the Asia Foundation. I'm John Rieger.

Tracie Yang (00:11):

And I'm Tracie Yang.

John Rieger (00:12):

Usually on this program, we interview our colleagues in the Foundation about interesting things they've seen and done.

Tracie Yang (00:18):

But today we're talking to someone who is about to leave us. Herizal Hazri has been with the foundation for 15 years, for the last six of which he has been our country representative in Malaysia.

John Rieger (00:30):

He's leaving for a new position as executive director of the Malaysian Institute for Strategic and International Studies, a prestigious appointment, and we invited him to join us for one last conversation before he goes. Herizal, welcome to InAsia.

Herizal Hazri (00:44):

Thank you, John. Thank you, Tracie. It happened to be my last day, exactly my last day in Malaysia.

John Rieger (00:50):

So, Herizal you're ending a decade and a half with the Asia Foundation in Malaysia. What were those 15 years? Do they have a theme?

Herizal Hazri (00:59):

I don't think so, because the work is so interesting that things changes almost every other day at the Foundation. I guess I like to sort of find solutions to everything. I think it can be a strength, sometimes it's a weakness. My wife always tells me you do not have to find solutions to everything I tell you, but I guess I'm just naturally like that.

Tracie Yang (01:23):

So let's talk about one of the things that you felt you needed to fix as a program director for the Foundation in Malaysia. You were instrumental in the creation of the national dialogue on Islam and democracy. What was the purpose of that initiative and what did it accomplish?

Herizal Hazri (01:44):

Well, I think what's really important and exciting at that time was that there was a shift of leadership in Malaysia from the earlier part of Mahathir's premiership to Abdullah Badawi. And we see there was this sudden openness to a lot of issues that's always been critical within the Malaysian community.

Herizal Hazri (02:03):

You know, Malaysia is a multi-ethnic multi-religious society. It has been managed very well, but you know, Malaysia had racial riots in 1969 and since 1969, everything, you know, was highly managed in the country. When Abdullah Badawi came in one of the key things at that time was to try and understand this unique sort of relationship between Islam and democracy, because, you know, Malaysia has a majority Muslim community.

Herizal Hazri (02:32):

So we did a nationwide dialogue with different levels of society from moms to executives, religious teachers, educators, and even normal people on the streets. And I thought the finding was very interesting and powerful. We compile it and we send it back to the prime minister's office, which essentially help the conceptualization of this thing that was called Islam Hadhari, which is moderate Islam that was launched by prime minister Adbullah Badawi later that year.

John Rieger (03:10):

Herizal, in 2012 you became the Foundation's Deputy Country Representative in Malaysia. And that was also the year that the Philippine government and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front signed the historic agreement to end the fighting in Mindanao. You were part of the international contact group that facilitated the agreement. Is there a story to tell about that success?

Herizal Hazri (03:30):

Oh, wow. Too many stories. They're just, it's amazing because it's one of a kind, no other peace process would actually have the involvement of NGOs as part of the negotiation to help bring the aspirations of the people into the peace process. I still remember after the signing of the Bangsamoro agreement, I was interviewed right outside of the Malacañan presidential palace by media and there was this young man and at the end of the interview, he came and approached me and he said, "How can this piece of paper that says that we are ending the violence today ensure that the people on the ground, that they would have opportunity to lead a normal life?"

John Rieger (04:17):

That's a tough one.

Herizal Hazri (04:18):

Yeah, because that is what really matters. At the government level, track one or track two or whatever, right, what is important is agreements and accords, but really at the community level, we need to translate that into something that's really tangible. And that was when I looked at him and I said, that's exactly why I stayed in all these years in the peace process, because I want to ensure that development is considered to be part of this process. The peace process of Mindanao was not just a political process. Organizations like the Asia Foundation actually brought the development, vision and view in the process because we want to ensure that whatever that was achieved in that room would impact the lives and livelihood of each and every person in the south of Philippines.

Tracie Yang (05:08):

You've also recently been working on Malaysia's Sabah province on preventing violent extremism. Can you tell us something about the circumstances in Sabah and the nature of the project there?

Herizal Hazri (05:23):

So Sabah is one of those places that I would say is a fluid state, though it is actually part of Malaysia. So traditionally, people roam quite freely and the seas of Sabah, and they have very strong sort of like association with their traditional communities that is now part of other countries like the Philippines or Indonesia, because, you know, Sandy, the whole world adapted the nation state system in the late 1800s. But you have communities that has relationship, family ties with people in the south of Philippines, as well as in Kalimantan, and suddenly now they are defined as to be either Indonesia and Malaysia or the Philippines. So when communities try to place themselves within a certain identity, let's say the identity of being a Malaysian, now, what is that identity? Now it comes with a certain sort of belief, the belief that I should have, you know, greater access to education, with access to economy, greater access to expressing my rights better. So on, so forth.

Herizal Hazri (06:24):

Now, if you don't achieve some of those sort of aspirations, especially on the development front, then that also creates a bit of a conflict. So then why am I, as part of this sort of identity, have less access than someone in Kuala Lumpur to sort of, you know, economy opportunities. Now it is a very simple question, but there is no very direct and simple sort of solution to this and then comes sort of, you know, elements of influence that then promises them that if you become part of our identity, then you will get all of this that you're not getting right now. And that's normally what perpetuates sort of this vulnerability to its violent ideologists that sometimes comes from somewhere that's totally alien from them. Something that doesn't even relate to their own community.

Herizal Hazri (07:18):

The call for our global caliph for instance, has no relationship with a community that exists in the remote areas of Sabah or Mindanao or Kalimantan. But they will only realize this if we strengthen the identities. Now, the people in Sabah has not really adopted a certain alien identity. However, we see that if it's not being addressed, then their tendencies might be high. So really, the key work here is prevention violent extremism and not countering violent extremism.

John Rieger (07:52):

So Herizal, you have been active recently on the Foundation's Advanced Middle-Income Countries project. As Asia has developed and prospered, more countries have achieved the status of middle-income countries, which brings with it its own issues and uncertainties. Is this a glimpse of the future of international development in Asia?

Herizal Hazri (08:17):

I would certainly say yes. I think Advanced Middle-Income Countries is really trying to understand how we pass, you know, approach development in this changing world. And Asia is probably the most active region in terms of development. So you are actually looking at a group of countries that will become either middle-income or advanced middle in a short term, but really what is that change? Do we know what that change is going to be? And this is where the Asia Foundation I think is best place to try and answer that question because we are one of the very few organizations in the world that have actually existed in a lot of these countries continuously over the last 60 years. We've been with these countries. Imagine the Asia Foundation in Korea. Imagine when we first opened our office in South Korea and how or where South Korea is today, right? Malaysia. We opened our office in Malaysia in 1954. This was when Malaysia was still Malaya.

John Rieger (09:23):

But Herizal, let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. I've got to interject. It's a proud history, but does the time come when you say, okay, you're developed, we're leaving.

Herizal Hazri (09:34):

Well, that's what, that's what a lot of international development practitioners tend to believe, especially in the late 1990s. Now that sort of sentiment is unpopular already because we now understand a lot better than we did in 1990s, that development challenges actually exists in many different forms and different ways throughout the progress of a nation. Now, the Asia Foundation is not in the business of trying to bring countries from one point to another. We are not teaching these countries on how to be developed. They know this a lot better than we do. Now what we are doing is we are really being in that country to try and figure out solutions or approaches to address these challenges and those challenges continue to evolve and it changed. It changed.

Tracie Yang (10:24):

So we can't let you go without asking about the future. You're taking over as the executive director of the Malaysian Institute of Strategic and International Studies. Can you tell us anything about how you hope to steer the Institute into the future?

Herizal Hazri (10:45):

I feel that, you know, the knowledge that I've gained in all this years that I've working with the Asia Foundation really sort of like brings a new alternative for the lack of a better term to how, you know, things are organized and how they look into designing approaches to address certain challenges. So, you know, bringing development into it, I think is, will be a fresh sort of, you know, a vision for ISIS. I think they are all very excited about it. I am excited about it.

Tracie Yang (11:18):

Yeah, I think there's a common conception that think tanks are just so policy driven and it sounds like you're really eager to kind of interject the Asia Foundation's way of thinking.

Herizal Hazri (11:30):

Good. You just hit it very well. That's exactly what I meant.

John Rieger (11:32):

Herizal Hazri, thank you so much for joining us today.

Herizal Hazri (11:36):

Thank you very much.

John Rieger (11:37):

That's all for this week's InAsia podcast. Be sure to join us for our next edition when we'll meet some quite electrifying young broadcasters in the Philippines who are using their media savvy to support their far-flung communities in the Bangsamoro. Until then, I'm John Rieger.

Tracie Yang (11:52):

And I'm Tracie Yang.

John Rieger (11:54):

Thanks for listening.